Okay, so I think we may have had a related post earlier about this, but I want some fresh ideas and I'm lazy. Here's the scoop:
I'm taking Dow's weightlifting course right now, partially because I want to get strong, and partially because I want to be eligible for XC and I'm only taking 27 units of real classes. According to Mr. Shapiro, "strength training increases running economy" (citation?).
So, what areas should I focus on? Dow suggests upper body work emphasizing lats and triceps (like dips and [assisted] pull ups), lots of core strengthening, and leg press and lunges. Erin (the athletic trainer) also suggested working on my hip ab/adductors for stabilization.
However, Susan has expressed concern that this kind of work will be detrimental to my recovery from workouts. I'd been looking at it as a supplemental way of doing the weight room and core stuff I should already be doing but it seems like we don't usually do regularly enough.
My schedule at this point is approximately:
M/W/F: AM 1 mile jog barefoot to warm up, strength training, core work; PM run with the team (M long, W medium intensity, F prerace)
T/R: AM workout
Saturday workouts or race, Sunday off or bike.
Good idea? Bad idea? At the very least, I think a little barefoot running a few times a week can't be that bad, and having a more serious, structured approach to core training would be good. But I also don't want to get overtrained.
10 comments:
I think it's a good idea, and as long as you're doing it regularly I don't think it will kill your running. Just make sure when the taper starts, you cut back on most of the lifting.
I have a lot of ideas on this, mainly because I've been lifting a lot more regularly here than I have anytime at tech. I'm pretty convinced that you should continue to focus on core. What defines core? Well a lot of times it seems that the focus is always on abs, but really it seems that more and more articles are coming out relating injures to flawed biomechanics that can be resolved through increased hip strength.
So I think, since my time is short and I may or may not get around to writing more later, is that you should emphasize hip strength. Do the abductor and adductor machines, and that machine next to that one too, and also throw in a low of non-machine hip exercises. I suggest single-leg raises (you know, lie on your back and lift one leg to isolate your hip), then you point your toe out and do single leg raises (this will get your groin as your toe points laterally), and then get on your side to do the side-leg lifts (mark loves these). In addition, you can do the side leg lifts standing up.
I think glutes are good to work too, and some arms, but not too much arms. I like the idea of working lats because you need to be able to pull your arm back fully during your blistering kick, I think Lydiard might have agreed.
For more hip/glute exercises look at this article I sent to mark.
In summary, core includes hips and glutes!!!
It might not hurt to throw in some eccentric calf raises either, since all the cool kids seem to be doing it.
i think the best answer is simply to try it and see how it works. pay careful attention to how you feel after workouts. if you're tired from lifting, back off a bit. if you're leaving the gym feeling pumped and ready to go, that's ideal.
i've heard plenty of runners argue that weight training is worthless, and plenty more that it is essential. i've found that the more adamant they are in defending their position, the less likely they are to find creditable support.
if one were clearly the superior of the other, it would be easy to choose - whichever camp was right would be running better. but it's not clear.
i think that these days, most elite runners and serious college runners are doing some sort of extra training, especially the core strength kangway described. this observation is based on my general impression gleaned from reading interviews with runners and coaches.
also, i've heard the advice to lift on workout days, the rationale being that training puts two types of stress on your body - acute stresses in the area you trained and general metabolic stress. the acute stress would lead to sore quads after running downhill, for example. the general stress would lead to feeling lethargic the day after a 20 mile long run. (or, the week after an 80-mile long run, as the case may be). your body needs to be able to recover from both stresses, but to recover from the general metabolic stress, you need relative rest from all physical activity. active recovery is fine, but asking your body to lift on recovery days, then asking your body to recover from lifting on stressful workout days, may be too much.
i couldn't tell you the cellular or molecular origins of either type of stress. what i keep hearing is that muscle soreness is due to "microtears", but from what i understand this is not certain. as far as being generally tired, i'm equally stumped. pH and blood lactate levels return to normal just hours after working out, as do body temperature and heart rate. i'd imagine blood sugar, and cellular sugar and ATP levels also are normal not long after a hard workout. heck, on average a stem cell can divide once per day, so if you can make a whole new cell in that time frame you'd think a cell could clear out metabolic waste in that time easily. i'm left to hypothesize something hormonal is taking place after hard workouts. if that's true, it could explain why some performance-enhancing drugs work by reducing recovery time between workouts, because drugs could presumably either act like hormones or regulate hormones related to that lethargic feeling the day after a hard effort.
kangway, can you grant any insight on the above digression?
on the other hand, none of this is on very firm footing (especially coming from me, since i make zero attempt to review the literature. i don't even know where the literature is). the best thing to do is experiment with when you feel like you have the energy to lift, and when lifting seems to enervate you. then, avoid lifting when it'll make you tired on a workout, and avoid lifting when you're tired from a workout.
finally, i'll say that i'm convinced at least some of the "general wisdom", that is, the sorts of things most personal trainers would tell you, is wrong. because people say that the more specific the exercise is, the better. so, for example, they want you to do core stability exercises standing on your feet (or one foot), because it's more similar to running.
but if more specific were always better, and the goal of the weight room were to imitate running as closely as possible, then it would all be pointless, because running itself would be the best! you can't get any more specific to what you do in running than running itself. apparently, if you're in the weight room, there are better ways to work your core muscles than by counting on them to stabilize you while you run.
now, athletic trainers might be indignant, and say I don't understand what's meant by specificity, or that in practice when i go for a run i'm using the wrong muscles, so i have to be trained in the gym to use the right ones, etc. But my point is simply not to take "common knowledge" as gospel.
I didn't read the other two posts in their entirety, but I'm going to be the counterpoint and say that to first-order, lifting weights does not help your distance running. Elite runners and D1 college runners have time to deal with second-order training, the rest of us don't. But since you're taking the class anyway, I'd agree with Susan and do stuff that won't make you tired for running.
What I'd tell my athletes, if I had any, is that when you feel like you want to go lift weights you should go running instead.
I'll respond more to this when I have time.
Ryan, I think for some of us it'd be better that sometimes when we feel like going for another run (like doubles or something), we should go do some abs. I tell myself that these days, and I'm pretty convinced if it was any other way I would probably be 10x more injured.
hahaha, oh man.... i was just about to post something that was like, the elite women all have impressive complete bodies, so maybe lifting DOES help. but then i saw The Brain's post.
so basically only Markkimarkkonnen who has recently been accepted into the ranks of "elite runners" should concern himself with weight training.
personally, i prefer the rule that the elites may be obliged to deal with second order training, vs. the rest of us slowpokes should preferentially deal with first order training, in so much that second order training should not be attempted to the detriment of first order training/sleeping/being healthy, etc. so, KB, its your call as to whether you think the lifting harms your running/recovering and if it doesn't then its probably at worst, neutral.
i do agree from empirical evidence only that hip strength does resolve many biomechanical issues that result in injury, but at the same time, part of me wonders, IF you do NOT have weird injuries/biomechanical issues, building up weird muscles through weight training may actually hinder your most efficient running structure. but again, no evidence for this, just a hunch... well also observing how much easier, smoother and more natural running feels to me, post fasting/losing a lot of muscle mass.
Yeah the unfortunate thing is that sometimes we can't fix the deficiencies in our biomechanics just by running more. I think strides can help, but sometimes it seems that the problem is that if you have a little hitch, the more you run the more the hitch is going to place uneven strain on some part of your body which will eventually cry out in pain.
Hey Ryan, is your achilles better yet? Just wondering because I was in the gym yesterday and suddenly remembered you and your headphones going at it furiously on the ellipitical.
all the discussion is overstimulating. i'm going to focus on replying to ryan.
the goal of training should be to maximize fitness subject to the constraints of the effort you're capable of putting in.
different types of training are capable of giving fitness benefits. if you know exactly what the benefits will be for a certain input of training, then choosing what training to do is easy. you simply follow the principle of basic economics - train at the margin.
training is subject to diminishing returns. the difference between five and six runs a week is slightly more than the difference between six and seven. so even if running is the best training, at some point the diminishing returns will bring you to the point where a session in the gym exceeds the benefit of another 45 minutes of running.
finding that point is complicated for two reasons. one is that the different modes of training may be interconnected. if you've done six runs this week, the marginal benefit of lifting AND running again is not necessarily the same as the sum of the marginal benefits of the two taken separately
second, the benefits are unknown, and will continue to be debated for a long time. personally, i feel limited more by diminishing returns in running training than by lack of time. i think that if i ran much more, i would increase my chances of injury enough that the benefit could potentially be negative, whereas i think a couple of gym sessions a week are likely to have some tangible benefit. they might even enable me to run more. so possibly, the advice should be: do some gym work for a while, then go run more.
When you have the time and energy for it, lifting weights is fun, feels good, and gives you big titties that drive the ladies wild.
When you don't have the time it's an added stress, and when you don't have the energy it's a drain and counterproductive.
There's only so much running your joints, muscles and connective tissue can take. But if you've got some energy and enthusiasm left over it can't hurt to add another mode or two of alternative training, whether it's lifting, swimming or a long easy ride on Sunday.
Back during XC my first year as a grad student (when I was taking 2 classes, sleeping 9 hours a night, and ran my best races) I'd sometimes not leave the gym until 8pm after practice, because I'd spend two hours stretching and lifting. I loved it. It helps if you have nothing else to do.
To sum it up: lift if you like lifting. It's not a substitute for running (duh), but it could be a benefit, and it's not a detriment unless you go overboard with it.
megamoo, kangway, mark, ian - all good points, no argument here. I imagine that the point of diminishing returns for running, where weight-lifting time would be more beneficial, is quite high for the non-injury prone individual. And of course each person is different, so your error bars get too big to say anything meaningful. For example, Mark's running would be greatly improved by refining his ability to catch an airplane. That might not be true for, say, Paul Tergat.
Kangway - Achilles is ok but I fell a couple weeks ago and messed up my knee. That's on the mend though and I did 80mi last week. I have a half-marathon this weekend but I'm not expecting anything great. I miss those elliptical machines, the free live basketball games, and the myriad hotties that frequented the caltech gym. They wanted me to pay like $300 a year for gym membership here. I told them that was horseshit and vowed to swim in the lake when I get hurt.
you're right - the ability to catch an airplane would improve my running dramatically. airplanes are really really fast.
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